(no subject)

[ignes_fatui]

Continuation of this thread.

Who: Ienzo and Jay
When: Backdated to midway through the 4th wall/sleepover event
Where: 5005 Apple Pie Place (Jay Zimin's house)
Summary: Two people with very different experiences and opinions with regards to gender try to have a conversation about gender
Rating: PG-13, probably higher
Warnings: Trans discourse, probable discussion of dysphoria, sexism, related subjects.

Normally Ienzo doesn't make it his business to tend to the emotional well-being of others - for one thing, he's only just starting to find his feet when it comes to tending to his own mental state, and for another it's not generally his business. Bertie and Ammond are the obvious exceptions to this, of course, being people he's romantically involved with and thus very much supposed to be his business, but Jay occupies a much less clearly defined position. They're friends, obviously, and it isn't as if Ienzo dislikes him or doesn't care by any means, but it does feel like slightly less of a natural response to go rushing to his aid if he suspects something's upsetting him.

At the same time, though, Ienzo wouldn't be terribly pleased with himself if he didn't at least check in briefly. Again, he is a friend, and the Meadous is small enough that he doesn't exactly have an excuse not to. As Zephyr's movie night winds down, Ienzo excuses himself politely and leaves to find Jay. It's a simple task for him, even with how busy the Meadous has gotten over the past few days - the overpowering smell of his perfume leads him back into the village proper and right to Jay's door.

Ienzo reaches out and knocks on the door, tentative. There's a distinct twist of Darkness to Jay's scent that he can detect even from outside, indignation, fear, disgust. Proof enough that Bertie's lookalike wasn't exaggerating just how much he'd managed to upset him, he supposes. It looks as if he was right to come after all.

Comments

"passing" as one's gender talk cw

[ignes_fatui]

	Jay opens the door a little more vigorously than he intended to. In fact, it's fair to say he yanks it open, a glare already prepared for whoever's bothering him. His expression softens a great deal when he sees it's only Ienzo. "Oh, darling," he says, softly. His voice is flat; his unaffected way of speaking has returned, with its harsh working-class Tribes accent. He's really very upset. "Is ... is something the matter?"
	"Actually, I came to ask you the same thing," Ienzo says, before realizing that it's possibly a little odd to show up at someone's door and immediately ask why they're upset they haven't seen you see them being upset. He backpedals, explaining. "One of the visitors from the other realms mentioned managing to upset you and was rather evasive as to why. It sounded serious, though." And still does, actually. Ienzo has been around Jay long enough to know that he seldom drops his affectations - including and especially the emotional theatrics - unless something is very wrong.
	Jay raises an eyebrow only a fraction of an inch. "Is that so," he says, flatly. "You better come in. It's chilly outside." He steps aside to let Ienzo go through. His eyes are downcast. A faint sour note lingers under his perfume — he'd thrown up twice since getting home after the conversation with House.
	It's a detail that doesn't go unnoticed, and Ienzo raises a concerned eyebrow at Jay as he follows him inside. Was it really that bad? The stranger on the beach was abrasive and unpleasant to be sure, and hearing that kind of thing from someone who looked so much like Bertie was undeniably jarring, but Ienzo is having a hard time imagining what could have been that upsetting. "If you'd prefer not to talk about it in detail, I'd understand," he says, because it is true even if the curiosity would eat at him relentlessly for the rest of the season. "I just wanted to make certain you're alright."
	Jay leads Ienzo to the sitting room and throws himself upon the sofa. From his position there, he looks at Ienzo mournfully. Finally, he speaks. "Darling, will you be honest with me?" he says, his voice pleading, a little tearful. "Do I ... Do I pass?"
	That would explain it, yes. Ienzo goes silent for a moment, first out of surprise, stunned and angry on Jay's behalf, then thoughtful as as he considers the question. He isn't certain if Jay wanted a serious answer, but Ienzo is an illusionist. It's in his training and indeed his nature to examine how people perceive others and are perceived by others. "On many levels, you have it easier than most," he says, once he's taken the time to consider Jay's appearance as a whole as if seeing him for the first time, without his own bias of knowing him personally. "Facial features are, for many, the hardest features to disguise, as opposed to the secondary sexual characteristics as one might expect. Yours are fairly androgynous, leaning masculine." Pausing again, he stops and tries to think of the most delicate way to put the rest. None of it is quite so positive, and the thought of having to put any of it into words is making him start to strongly regret coming here. "In terms of intentional presentation as opposed to intrinsic traits, however, I'm afraid I can only speak from my own cultural context, and, well. You do dress in a manner most societies from which the others here hail read as very feminine, as I'm sure you've noticed, and barring extreme cases people are generally most likely to assess others based on voluntary cues such as makeup and attire. There do exist very masculine women and very feminine men, after all." This conversation is already making Ienzo distinctly uncomfortable, and he folds his arms - a comforting gesture and initially a habit formed to obscure and draw attention away from his chest. Awkwardly, he searches for some kind of positive to end on. "If you were to adopt a more... universal style of dress you would have a much easier time altering your silhouette than I do. Not to imply that you should abandon your own culture, of course."

cw: homophobic slurs, old-fashioned theories of human sexuality, binarism/gender essentialism

[ignes_fatui]

	Jay snorts and, if it's possible for a derisive snort to also be hopeless, this one is. He doesn't sit up and when he speaks, he talks to the ceiling rather than look at Ienzo directly. "I'm a certain kind of man," he says, distantly. "Effeminacy is a proud tradition among ... my tribe." Here, he props himself up on an elbow and looks meaningfully at Ienzo. He's rather worried Ienzo might not know what he means, which saddens him a little. "Quite besides the whole thing with trousers being for barbarians. I can't have people thinking I'm heter!" Then he slumps down again and throws an arm over his eyes. There is a silence. Then Jay speaks up again, his voice quieter this time. "He figured out I was ... transgender. Is that the word? That's the word, I think. He called attention to it. He could tell ... he could tell."
	[are you ready for COLONIALIST CONCEPTIONS OF NONBINARY GENDERS also outdated terminology/conception of binary trans identities] "If it's any consolation, he made no indication of that assessment to me," says Ienzo, latching on to the first part of that he's entirely certain he understands. Some cultures operate on a three-gender system with the third role reserved for what might in other places be considered a man who has taken on or been assigned a normally "female" role while being held apart from womanhood, and while Ienzo has never heard of someone born a woman coming to identify as one of them he supposes it's possible. Still, Ienzo gets the impression that this isn't what Jay is talking about. "You mean to say that you intentionally dress in an effeminate manner," he says, slowly, wanting to make sure he's interpreted this correctly. "As a means of advertising your homosexuality to others?"
	Jay gives Ienzo a long, slow look. It's half amazement and half bafflement and all condescension. His previous distress is all but forgotten in light of what Ienzo just said. "Darling," he says, archly, "are you honestly telling me I'm the first flaming faggot you've met?" This seems patently absurd. If nothing else, there's Even, who swished and shrieked and sneered with the best of them, though Jay never actually got a chance to collar him and drop a couple of hairpins. He regrets that now, if only because he doesn't want to misrepresent anyone here and he needs a data point other than himself. (There's Dist, of course, but that's too painful a data point to utilise.) Jay theatrically raises both hands and then brings his hands down on the sides of his perfectly marcelled hair. "Will wonders never cease," he murmurs. "Honestly, dearest, how old are you? And you're an invert yourself, for goodness sake! Is the idea of a fairy really that alien to you?"
	Ienzo dislikes the look Jay is giving him almost as much as he dislikes his tone, and bristles visibly. He's doing his level best to understand, but if Jay is going to snipe at him for needing clarification then so be it. "Assuming all of this is still translating correctly, yes," he says, flatly. "To the best of my knowledge nearly everyone I've encountered has continued to act in the manner of their gender regardless of their romantic inclinations. If one intended to attract the attention of gay men to themselves, wouldn't it be more sensible to dress and behave as a man?" Or just as themselves, since attraction has multitudes more factors than gender alone? Ienzo supposes there are some people who reject gender norms because they feel ill-fitting, much like what he himself did but on a lesser scale, but Jay seems to be implying that what he does is specifically and intrinsically linked to his sexuality. It's not a concept he's familiar with in the least, and while he'd normally be willing to simply nod and consider it a matter of cultural differences, Jay is acting as if he should already be intimately familiar with the practice just because of his own inclinations.
	Jay opens his mouth. Then he closes it. Then he sniffs, theatrically, and pulls a handkerchief from an inner pocket of his suit jacket. After loudly blowing his nose and dabbing at his eyes, he gives Ienzo a stern look. "So, er, Even wasn't—" he begins, and then stops. No, assuming Even would've had the time or the inclination to explain anything is stupid. As is assuming anything about Even, actually, affect and mannerisms be damned. Jay blinks at Ienzo a few times and then shakes his head, ruefully. "I mean, I suppose if one were trade— but, ah. Have I got this right, darling? Are you saying that where you are from, sexuality is not merely a consequence of one's gender?"
	Despite his best efforts to remain at least somewhat civil, Ienzo snorts derisively when Jay brings up Even. "Even would sooner light himself on fire than initiate romantic contact of any kind with anyone, much less sexual," he says, by way of explanation. "But no, I've honestly never heard of the idea that homosexuality was the result of an aberrant gender. Do you mean to say that all gay men from Mir act-" he narrowly catches himself before saying 'like women'. Confused as he is, Ienzo doesn't want to imply that Jay isn't a man, and even he can recognize that there's a difference between effeminacy and femininity. "Effeminately? And that every man who acts effeminately is, without exception, gay?" He supposes that sort of blatant signaling of interest would make things easier in a way, when seeking out partners, but it all sounds baffling and unnecessary to him, at best.